simonjrogers ([info]simonjrogers) wrote,
@ 2009-06-22 16:02:00
Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend  Next Entry
Entry tags:cc3, profantasy, torrent

Campaign Cartographer 3 Torrent
The second most popular Google search term after "Campaign Cartographer 3" is "Campaign Cartographer 3 torrent."

I'd like to appeal to those people considering a pirated copy to buy the software - since 2005 we've had a 14-day money back guarantee, and we urge you to try our support and community if you have any questions during that time. If you don't think the software represents value for money after that, just get your money back.

Piratebay, demonoid and all those other seeders have CC3 on torrent. There isn't too much we can do about it, though we have got a few sites to pull down links, and got a few pirates to pay up. We aren't sure how much this affects our sales - I'm sure a lot of pirates wouldn't have bought our stuff anyway - but there are certainly those who have made the choice to steal rather than buy. I estimate that there are four pirated copies in use for every one sold. These pirates aren't freedom fighters - most of them make money from advertising, and some even have the cheek to ask for donations.

Piracy definitely decreased when we introduced CC3 - it pings our server automatically to validate the serial number on installation, or gets you to type in a code if you don't have internet access. However, we don't want to inconvenience our customers, so we rely on our reputation for technical support, and the excellence of our community to keep revenue flowing. CC3 is a relatively inexpensive piece of software, and even our Whole Shebang bundle, while a fair price, still represents excellent value for money compared with other similar commercial software.

One other issue - on the CC3 torrent we downloaded, there was a very nasty Trojan virus. You get what you pay for.


(26 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]sanity_cheque
2009-06-22 04:33 pm UTC (link)
I love your product and own the entire CC2 package. I'm sorry to hear that you guys are that heavily pirated :( I'm think that Demonoid will pull down the torrent if you contact them, not so sure about the pirate bay.

(Reply to this)


[info]foxbat
2009-06-22 04:55 pm UTC (link)
I'm not a map maker but I've spent a fair amount of money on ProFantasy's software over the years. I think I own just about all of the map making products and a number of the libraries. Your products are well worth the money and allow someone like me (who's not terribly artistic) to produce very nice-looking maps. I second your call for people to steer clear of illegal sources of your fine products.

(Reply to this)


[info]princejvstin
2009-06-22 06:29 pm UTC (link)
It might be wrong of me to say it, but getting a virus from a torrent download like that is, in a sense, karmic payback.

(Reply to this)


[info]hybridartifacts
2009-06-23 07:06 am UTC (link)
You may actually find some of those torrents actually act as advertising for you. Some of those downloaders as you mention wont actually use it at all, while others will use it occasionally and then decide to buy it if they start using it more (or will have downloaded an older version, and then buy the latest). Quite a lot of downloaders of rpg stuff are actually 'archivers' btw - they just collect stuff for the sake of it and have massive collections of rpg related material nobody in a million years could ever use, but which they see (rightly or wrongly) as a form of saving material that may one day no longer be available.

Its a complicated issue, full of many rights and wrongs and very few clear solutions alas. They key is often creating your own torrents where you can control or affect the nature of the product downloaded, rather than chasing the existing ones.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]simonjrogers
2009-06-23 09:01 am UTC (link)
I don't really find it that complicated, nor is it particularly grey. There is nothing morally redeeming about software piracy, even if their is a chance they might buy it. There isn't even the old excuse that it's "evil micro$oft". We are just a small niche software company, and piracy does hurt us.

Software isn't the same as PDFs - occasionally people will by a hard copy, but it's very rare that anyone would buy the software - they have it in any case. I agree that there are few solutions.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]thefon
2009-06-23 12:19 pm UTC (link)
Like hybrid says, how about packaging up your freeware / demo version as a torrent, and leaving some comments on the other torrents like "this one is broken and has a virus, try my torrent instead"?

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]hybridartifacts
2009-06-23 06:51 pm UTC (link)
In a way you are actually far far better off than most artists - we get stuck with a dilemma that if we post our artwork online, some people may buy a print of it, but 9 times out 0f 10 they are just content to either enjoy the image on screen or they can easily print off a small copy (since even a 72dpi 400pixel across picture can be printed at a reasonable quality at a smallish size).

The point I was trying to make is that ultimately the lost sales are always going to be lost sales unless you can find a way to make the torrents work for you somehow. There was a big debate going on at some of the indie rpg communities about the whole subject - trying to find ways to actually use the inevitable torrents by deliberately putting out versions that contained content that pushed people toward actual sales. I have no idea how many people found effective ways of doing that though.
Maybe a version deliberately 'leaked' thats filled with ads that get you revenue every time its used would be great?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]simonjrogers
2009-06-24 08:59 am UTC (link)
Yes, with art it seems copying is even more prevelant. A non-commercial creative commons license is a possibility here, as is the "watermark" across the middle.

I agree completely. We have to ignore the morality of torrents for business purposes, and try to see how we can make the best of them.

We've had a few ideas for torrents, the problem is that people immediately post when they find out what the downside is. We can't compete with "here is the complete software free".

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]hybridartifacts
2009-06-24 05:36 pm UTC (link)
I must admit I have started to take a philosophical view with the artwork - yes people effectively can see and enjoy my art for free, and some no doubt copy it, but its the price I pay for having access to international sales I would never have had without the internet - so it gives with one hand and takes away with another, but in the end I am getting more than if I just didnt post my work at all.

The saying ' A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush' springs to mind.
Though it would be rather nice to have the ones in the bush as well...

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]reverancepavane
2009-06-26 10:34 pm UTC (link)

A non-commercial creative commons license is a possibility here, as is the "watermark" across the middle.

This is an approach used by many of the high-end CAD and graphics packages (such as Maya, Vue, etc). These are usually targeted at the university student population in order to familiarise them with the product and increase subsequent market penetration once they join the workforce. [And in this vein, many companies will also offer considerable discounts to universities for them to adopt their package as the standard.] After all, these things are complex enough that most people are reluctant to learn a new system. The problem is that your sales-base isn't in this position, being mainly hobbyists.

Another possible idea is the one that DAZ3D uses (although, again, in your case I don't think it will work). They provide their software for free, but provide a marketplace for the sale of models and take a cut from that. Few people can resist the lure of "free" software, so they get their market penetration that way, and by providing a venue for people to sell their work, people feel that they can readily benefit from this, further encouraging market penetration. And, of course, the models they design and then sell are pure profit for them. That being said, these 3D models tend to be rather more complex than 2D cartography, useable in a wider variety of roles where time is money, and most people would only want one or two graphics sets anyway (although the use of battlemats in 4e has vastly increased the potential of this market for new graphics images).

<shrug>

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]deathquaker
2009-06-23 02:53 pm UTC (link)
The "try before you buy" and "free advertising" argument doesn't fly when the software in question offers both an extensive free demo and a 14-day money-back-guarantee for the fully purchased program. Anyone who wants to plug the program and support the creators is going to point them toward the official free demo.

And a person who is interested in preserving the creator's work out of respect for the creator is going to BUY THE FREAKING PRODUCT. Archive your legitimately purchased copy and make it available when it is abandonware 20 years from now? Sure.

But DL a torrent of it now when it is still in print and easy to buy--AND offers a free demo and a money back guarantee? There isn't much of an excuse for that.

That being said, I understand part of the issue is that Profantasy Software is expensive in a broad sense. Now, for in-depth, complex, CAD-based software, it is EXTREMELY reasonably priced. And just the CC3 package alone costs less than a full MSRP video game. But usually people who want to use it will want the add-ons, not just CC3, which puts your expenses into the hundreds of dollars very quickly. A lot of gamers/GMs/world builders are college students or young adults just starting out. $148 for the World Builder's package is a lot to shell out. Charging additionally for the extra symbol sets and the like can drive the money you'd spend on this one program through the roof.

I do wonder if there was a "Pro-fantasy Lite" program, or if there were more symbols and sample maps packaged in core, if that would attract a few people who do want CC3, but are in fact a little scared of the price tag. However, I imagine that would less cut down on piracy, and more attract people who are the type to be a legitimate customer anyway.

I know full well from the video game world that most people who pirate software are people who won't buy, no matter what. Most of them are selfish thieves with a ridiculously skewed sense of self-entitlement, and just won't pay for what they believe should be theirs "by right." The good news is is that... no, piracy doesn't actually result in sales losses because these jerks wouldn't buy anyway, but it still hurts to that someone is benefiting from your hard work and not paying you for your efforts.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]hybridartifacts
2009-06-23 07:09 pm UTC (link)
All fair points -especially the demo issue (so long as its a fully featured demo thats just time locked).
I agree that people who want to support the creator of something will always be inclined to buy the product. Your abandon ware comment makes a lot of sense (though not everyone is happy with the idea of people using old versions for free either) as it can sometimes be a way of teasing the not so likely to pay people into later paying for a full new version.
The Pro Fantasy Lite idea probably would appeal to some people, and there are certainly a few features/changes in CC3 that would get me using my copy (paid for btw) a bit more since I sometimes find I have to wrestle with it to get what want from it and just end up doing it in Photoshop instead some of the time. The software I used a lot is actually Fractal Terrains. I just dont get the time these days alas (and it seems the days of hours spent on rpgs are just a fading memory...).

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]simonjrogers
2009-06-24 09:00 am UTC (link)
We aren't against the idea of a lite version in principle, but we'd have to sell a vast number of copies for it to be worthwhile.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]hybridartifacts
2009-06-24 05:38 pm UTC (link)
True - and with a niche market thats not exactly easy to do.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]apokalypsetest
2009-06-24 03:27 pm UTC (link)
I am actually a legal owner of CC3 and I would like to use it, but the problem is exactly as stated: Its a powerful software in theory, but when push comes to shove, since I run contemporary games most, I would need the City Addon and at the modern symbol set and the Cosmographer (which isn't available at the current CC3 Standard) to get more symbols. Thats a whooping extra 130$ right here.

I like some of the package offers, but they either contain products I already have (CC3 again - yay) or products I don't need (DD) or they contain an old version by the time I buy it. The bundles are a nice way to make the entry sweeter for new customers, but if you buy the stuff when it comes out, the bundles don't help. How about a general rebate if you buy multiple licenses at a time? Instead of saying this package gets you 10% off, just saying if you buy three products at a time get 10% off? Most of the bundles come with at least one product I just don't need - which renders the whole bundle useless.

The way it is right now, I am using Dundjinni and their much cheaper symbol catalogs. I like CC better - but I can make similarly useful maps with Dundjinni and dish out less money.

The argument that professional CAD Software for architects brings more money in is invalid in my book anyways. If you produce for a niche market in which the majority of your customers is economically tight, you gotta work on the money that is in the market. Or with other words: If you are selling a Software to Architects and Universities that are well funded and use it to make money, you can get more out of it than if you try to sell it to students that use it for their hobby.

As a past (and hopefully future) customer, I have to inform myself of the cost for the product I could use and not of the cost of the chassis without wheels. And CC is compared to other software in the GAMING industry not cheap. In my using impression, the core I would need to have would AT LEAST encompass CC, CD, one or two symbol sets and probably the cosmographer (which depending on how much is in it will hopefully be my next purchase from you) which sums up to 180$+. Most normal people want probably the DD too... That is more money then I spend for all I buy for the average gaming system I play with.

That being said: Torrents cause damage to sales for sure, but I would guess that maybe 1 out of 100 people that torrent a file would by it otherwise. Having a FULLY functional but time limited demo instead of crippleware would most likely reduce the amounts of torrenting significantly. I don't want to see a video showing me what the best person you can find can do with your software, I want to see, what I can do with your software, and how it looks on my printer. Especially with a program with an entry level as high as CC, that would be helpful.

I feel bad for you losing sales on this, especially since you are one of the few companies in the industry that really makes an outstanding product over a long time with a good service. And I would guess you could sell a good amount of Lite Versions, especially if they can be upgraded later to the full version (by paying the difference?).

As things are right now, I am looking forward to the cosmographer - and if it ever happens a new modern symbol set for CC3 so that I can use it for my games. And as stupid as it sounds: Make it more visible what people get for their money - don't list just features and present me the best the software can do. Make a month or two of the annual available for free, so that people can see if its worth the money. You had a sample PDF of the tome of ultimate mapping apparently - but the actual download is gone.

You will never get the sales from people that just don't want to pay, but you might get the sales from hesitant people if you present more openly what they get. The source Maps demo is a nice example.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]reverancepavane
2009-06-23 04:30 pm UTC (link)

It is the professional graphics, the improved user interface (for the specific purpose of game mapping design), and the user support that you are really paying for when you buy this sort of product. There are free alternatives you can use if you don't want this ease of use (many of which are clumsy to use or assume existing training in CAD to use properly), so there really is no justifiable need to resort to piracy. And having bought software for University architecture schools, I can definitely say that the price is extremely reasonable for what you get.

PS: Are the technical requirements (minimum and recommended system specifications) on your website anywhere? I couldn't easily find them when I looked last time.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]simonjrogers
2009-06-24 09:01 am UTC (link)
http://profantasy.com/products/cc3_sysreq.asp

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]reverancepavane
2009-06-26 10:11 pm UTC (link)

Thanks!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
sup.
(Anonymous)
2009-07-16 02:19 pm UTC (link)
I got pirate bay to remove quite a bit of your stuff, mainly for this topic, i know you don't know me all I did was say multiple times THIS IS A VIRUS DO NOT DOWNLOAD!!!!!!!! on several of your products, and they removed it cuzz of the sheap, people that follow what the head person says, if one person says it is a virus, several other people say the same thing, I would recommend if they do not take your things down, have someone do that, and the sheep will just fall into place ^^ I know it is unprofessional but, It gets the job done, and gets it done right ^^ hope that helps they removed over 8 seeds from you guys.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
Re: sup.
(Anonymous)
2009-07-16 02:20 pm UTC (link)
--Vamp

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
Re: sup.
[info]simonjrogers
2009-07-16 04:02 pm UTC (link)
Well, thank you very much.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(Anonymous)
2009-08-03 08:04 pm UTC (link)
Hello,

I'd strongly encourage a demo for your products. I delayed buying each of the products I have from you as I was hoping to see a demo and have a play around with them. I nearly didn't buy them as the price is high (for my part of the world) and I was unsure if I'd get the benefit from them. The demo would have helped ease my decision.

Not being a programmer, I am unsure how feasible or easy it is for you to bash one up. Is it possible to prepare a demo that is fully working for a limited time, say 14 days, have each module but maybe a reduced symbol set. That way it is one 'self-contained' demo showing off the power of your products. I'd even suggest having a registration process for the demo and watermarks.

With regards to symbols. I'd like to see a different way of selling the brilliant symbols you guys produce. For example, I have one of the symbol packs which contains a huge amount of artwork, but I would only use a fraction of the art. In my ideal world, I'd be able to buy a 'family' of symbols from your site (kind of like buying stock photos). When I say family, I mean a symbol with it's varicolour and optional orientaions or whatever. Again, not sure how feasible this is to implement, or if it is compatible with you business model.

Anyway, thanks for the great products and the great support you guys have given me over the time I have been a customer - here's to the future.

(Reply to this)

It is woth the price
(Anonymous)
2009-08-19 07:54 pm UTC (link)
I recommanded CC3 and its addons to many friends and everybody who asked me about RPG and mapping tools. And I was always saying: "It is the best product of this kind on the market. And it is absolutely woth the price. If you don't have the money, there are many cheaper subagents, like Dungeon Crafter or AutoREALM."

I bought CC3 and I don't regret it at all. Support from ProFantasy is excelent and above all I've known so far. I am happy I could support ProFantasy and CC3 with my money.

So, please don't steal this software!

P.S. Maybe I souldn't say it but I was a pirate some time before. I didn't see the point to pay for software when I could download it free. However, just ProFantasy learned me to see the point. I learned there is software and kind companies like ProFantasy which worth the money and respect at all.

(Reply to this) (Thread)
Re: It is woth the price
(Anonymous)
2009-08-20 02:45 pm UTC (link)
im sure it is but, I can't afford it *sadface* As soon as I get a job I am going to try and get physical copies. and CC3 with the dungeun and the city builder. and possibly the annual. but untill then all i can do is stare at the sample pics like a kid at a toy store.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(Anonymous)
2009-09-01 10:29 pm UTC (link)
Ahoy, Mr. Rogers. I shall remain incognito, but you may call me Blackbeard. I believe you are smart enough to discern the nature of my anonymity, but I come to shed light on something you may not realize. Please hear me out. Parley as it were.

I am a somewhat recent college graduate still looking for employment in today's struggling economy. I have no money, but don't go crying on my account. I have not tried to make money with your product, in fact, I have barely had time to try it out (a 14-day money back guarantee doesn't do well when you only get a hand full of hours a week to try to make a project that can take many hours). However, in the video tutorials and in spending a few hours fiddling with it, I have come to the conclusion that it is indeed a very fine product, and I congratulate you for it. I will have a job soon, and I am 90% sure I will buy this program, but if for some unseen reason I cannot or do not buy it when I have the means to do so, I will delete it from my system.

Now you might still be wondering why I have even bothered to write a response (and even risked exposure if you have means to track an IP address). I wish to explain the reasoning for my actions:

Without money, I would never have purchased the product in the first place. Therefore you have not lost money due to my actions; you simply have someone using your program without permission. You might say "well that's reason enough", but had no one been able to buy your product, you wouldn't have ever made it (or at least not to such an extent). However, this does NOT justify my actions...yet...

So what would justify my actions? Well considering that this product has a one time purchase (considering upgrades as sequential one-time purchases) and that one time purchase allows the product to be used forever, would that not also extend backward in time?

My argument is that I would not have been able to buy the software anyway, however, once I get the means to buy it, I will, which will cover my trespass thus far. If I had no intention of buying it, I would have either never downloaded it, or once I had figured out that the program does not meet my needs/desires, then I would have deleted it. As it is, I do like your product, and I do plan to buy it.

Recap: You have lost no business from me, but in fact, will gain it shortly. Now I cannot justify the actions of everyone, nor can I say my actions are completely justified. There are those who just want the thrill of having stockpiles of multimedia that they will never peruse. Like many pirates out there, that is not what I do. You will lose business due to torrents, but you will gain it as well. I must say, while I understand the reason for your pricing is probably due to being an indie company, the prices are pretty scary. And again, the 14 day trial is not good enough for some (might I suggest something like 24 hours of actual use instead?) Also, I have become interested in some of your other programs. Don't worry, I won't pirate those hah, I don't even have time to use CC3 right now, but there is the possibility of making even more money from me branching to other products of yours.

Even with all my explanations, I cannot imagine you will finish this read in a jovial nature, but I just wanted to be a voice for a lot of my colleagues who do it not for purely selfish reasons (even though we be few compared to the number of selfish pirates).

And finally, there was a study done by some university (I can’t remember it now), but the chance that a pirate would buy a particular item is somewhere around 13 times more likely than someone who does not sample the product first (everyone else). Now please remember that 97.8% of all stats are made up, but I like to believe it. I know for myself, I have bought most and will buy the rest of anything I have ever not received legally.

I sincerely do hope business goes well for you. You have made a good product.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(Anonymous)
2009-10-22 08:17 am UTC (link)
Well unlike the above my anonymity is caused by not having a login in OpenID or Livejournal and since i seen no need for either of those why take the time to do so. With that regard My names Yehlan and if its a matter of contact heres my email yehlankrosz@hotmail.com there no longer anonymous.

Currently im looking into the world builder package as ive been a DM of D&D for about 18 years and am currently building my own world to the same extent that forgotten realms or dragonlance has been created which is a massive project on my part with the help of a few others. I unlike college students or alot of others who play these types of games have no money concerns im able to drop hundreds and even thousands of dollars on products at a drop of a hat. But that doesnt mean im anymore likely of buying your product than they are.

I also will admit i pirate not because i consider myself a thief but because the quality of products be it multimedia like movies and music or software like your own seems to be extremely lacking in quality. Im the type of person who used to goto movie theatres to see any movie i thought had a good trailer now your lucky if i even consider going to the cheap theatre as even that feels like a waste when the movie ends. When a new movie comes out i download it then if i enjoyed it i always buy it as i also tend to enjoy the extras and commentarys. The same rules now applies to programs if i enjoy your program ill always buy it to get the extras like tech support and free updates.

Recently i decided that instead of reading out NPC story text during my games i would get a voice altering program and use that to record my voice and alter it in a style to sound how i wanted the character to sound. After much testing with the demo i couldnt get it to work as i wanted but after reading what the demo was lacking i was essentially told the functions i needed to complete my project was only available in the full version. This being something special i wanted to introduce into my games i spent the $100 on the program and quickly found out that the promised function was nothing like was promised so upon my attempt to return the program with there 14 day return guarantee i was stonewalled by fine print that of course was on an obscure pay nowhere near the "i agree to these terms" button nor in the agreed terms i was stuck with a program i now have no use for.

I appologize for taking so long to make my point but here it is now. Your demo may or may not give me enough use to merrit your price tag which is rather steep considering how many addons you seem to feel are required. But if i feel the demo doesnt warrent your price tag i will be looking for a torrent to test out your CC3 and if i find that program to meet or better yet exceed my hopes youll have my money for not only the CC3 but for at the minimum your world builder package and possibly some others at a later date.

Some companys have taken to releaseing full version of there software with a # of uses function meaning for your next 10-20 uses you get full function of the software after that it turns into a restricted use. One idea you may want to consider is just that but have it built into your software that anything printed or saved is saved or printed with a banner of your companys name across the entire width as to reduce the programs worth to people who are not just attempting to see how it works. I know as a consumer i want to know the program does what i need it to and as a consumer i should get to know what im buying but as a company you should also be able to limit how much benefit i can actually get from it. Before i buy a car i get to test drive it and use it as i would if i owned in regards to finction within the vehicle. But i dont get to go do my grocerys or use it to go on a road trip.

Once again i appologize for my long windedness but i tend to have too many thoughts and have a penchant to get them all out on a subject. But do expect that in the near future i will more than likely be purchasing this software and if i dont its because it didnt meet my needs and im looking elsewhere, not that ill be using it for free.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(26 comments) - (Post a new comment)

Create an Account
Forgot your login or password?
Login w/ OpenID
English • Español • Deutsch • Русский…